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tv   [untitled]    November 24, 2011 10:30pm-11:00pm EST

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hello news incoming line from moscow the parents in iran we go now to live pictures
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direct from egypt thousands defiantly remain on tahrir square for a seventh day of protests egypt's military rulers say they're sorry for the deaths of almost forty demonstrators killed in the worst pasha's since february as revolt of public anger shows no sign of decreasing the. arab foreign ministers are also in cairo but it's syria and not egypt that's all marriage and as they threaten damascus with further sanctions meanwhile france proposes to establish so-called humanitarian corridors in syria to get aid to areas under attack from state forces a strong echo of the pretexts under which the no fly zone was established over libya. plus russia stresses it's not going to stop the reset of ties with the u.s. but we'll call this nuclear disarmament and deploy rockets on its borders if washington establishes its missile shield in europe basco seeking britain legal guarantees that the shield will not be directed against it for washington refuses
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to put its verbal assurances in writing. the parties debate show cross talk with peter lobell is coming up next stay with us. it. was. a low in welcome across our computer a little we knew tensions in violence but in doubt many of the hopes that the heart of the gypsum revolution is mubarak's military establishment angling to remain in power will next week's parliamentary elections be held and if they are will be seen as fair and legitimate. cross-talk egypt's prospects i'm joined by running al maliki in cairo she is the chief editor of the daily news egypt in haifa we have david because he is
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a professor of middle east studies at the university of haifa and in london we crossed a karl he's a middle east blogger all right this is cross i mean we all know my guess can jump in anytime they want but first march it is egypt's revolution regressing well events are changing fast and it's hard to say right now but tension in egypt has remained unrelenting for more than a week now the country's health ministry says at least forty people have been killed and almost a thousand were injured in clashes between security forces and protesters calling for the end to the military's heavy handed the riot some of the fiercest since the ouster of president hosni mubarak last february have plunged the country into the kind of turmoil that market early days of the arab spring from both mission to give thousands in those in charge in egypt would be well advised to take people's political demands and justify concerns seriously and to create the right environment for the upcoming elections so sharp and but several political parties
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have already suspended their electoral campaigns well protesters say the parliamentary elections scheduled for tomorrow twenty eight will be meaningless unless the supreme council handover of power in media play on tuesday field march. so mohammad the man currently in charge of egypt and trust the public famous catholic not want power. we will stick to the timeline of parliamentary elections followed by presidential elections in june twenty eighth well and then the military will return to its barracks but only if the people want to and only through referendum. well the statement did little to placate the protesters who have come to hughton tare and the military leadership as the continuation of the mubarak regime there are claims that the military has a record of abuses on par with back of mubarak's have been backed by organizations like amnesty international. but not everyone has joined protesters the muslim brotherhood who are poised to clean the wall see the upcoming elections are taking
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a wait and see approach in part out of fear that the world could be moved and many in egypt believe that postponing elections could only entrench military rule which in turn would for inflame the current instability well one thing is clear is that the status quo is untenable well let's see about that i mean if i go to you first let's start with the conspiracy theories a lot of people saying that the current violence of this week and that's going on as we speak right now is something that the military actually wanted to have happen in the first place because they dream we don't want to have these elections because they're actually afraid of the outcome i think this is the biggest mystery it seems like this would be a motive for them to postpone the elections but there is at the same time they're insisting on having the elections i mean this morning there was a press conference with members of. the staff and. the head of the electoral commission and they were just voicing their plans there's a vat in place for the november twenty eighth elections and it seems that they will
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not oppose the elections so at this point it is not really clear why this situation has been made to reach this head. to me i think this is just gross mismanagement which is characteristic of this cast since they first took over ok it's interesting karl maybe the military should get out of the business of politics but it doesn't seem that way because it seems to me that no matter what election outcome if there is the election the military is a net loser because everyone talks about losing political power but actually they will be the bigger. loser in terms of the economy because as is well known the gyptian military is so heavily vested in the economy that any kind of democratic election that reflects the will of the people will say hey it's that belongs to the state not to the military it could be taken away from them yeah but what's threatening them at the moment is not only so-called democratic elections that might or might not happen in five days what is really a threat to the military rule over egypt now is very awakening off their
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evolutionary sentiments among the people of egypt and that's what at stake what is at stake at the moment and many people especially in the west are scratching their heads or thinking but you have elections in five days why would you go back to this three it's well they haven't been paying any attention to what's been happening in the past eight months and what the military has been doing in terms of violations and excesses all aimed at maintaining its control and elections have brought in let's say a victory for the muslim brotherhood would have actually strengthened the position of the military and that's why i think what's happening at the moment in the here and elsewhere in egypt this we forget is very very important in stopping that and saying very clearly it's time for the military to get out of the business of politics completely if i go to david i think it's very interesting here is that the military me actually be carrying a page from. way of rule in being backed by the united states for so many decades is it saying to the people look it's so unstable whatever the election outcome is
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is it weird that your guardians of security were the guardians of peace all of this stuff going out going on in areas is just chaos that you need which of course egyptians don't believe that anymore very few arabs in the middle east believe their governments are actually protecting them actually in most cases they still oppress them so the military is trying to have it both ways maybe. well i'm not quite sure about speculation going over that the military code is a conspiracy to dispose elections i have dr dietz i have written about it and have dr beat for the so many elections in before in egypt thirty five thirty or forty years the military regime time and again we have had the co-host of the most of brotherhood in accra not to participate in the elections and with our provocation they have a dialogue i'm not quite sure this equation right now because the situation in
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egypt the sons of dear is so frightening is so unstable a baby so will cozying really danger to the situation through the whole situation the middle east so i'm not quite sure this is the situation but let me tell you that about what we've seen this is a site we've seen from is that how do you square this is really frightening because this is that this does not leave to crow gratian to democracy to open society but simply to enter key. qualities go down to the streets the tent doesn't mean politics. is a much a careless and when there is chaos in the street and politics are it doesn't work it means there's a government has his note could not to rule and the political reigns
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and this is absolutely disastrous ok with me if i go back to you in cairo it seems to me that you know people are using the the muslim brotherhood one way or another saying oh well we should have the elections because we really don't want them to have so many seats in and in parliament and at the same time saying that you know the country isn't ready for democracy that we have to postpone the answer again is kind of lecturing the people because the people are going to vote in a certain way and there are certain powers that be within egypt and abroad saying that would be the wrong vote the wrong decision. brooke i think we need to go back to why this crisis has emerged i don't think it had anything to do with elections this is i think people are i think in general we're looking at the adarand picture where we're trying to get to the elections because the russians are so i mean they're they're going to happen in a couple of days but the issue is not about elections i think the explosion that started on saturday was
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a manifestation of the frustrations that have been building up and culminating over the past ten months there have been twelve thousand people subjected to military trials there have been reports of terrible abuses by the military police and by the police their trials of the former icons of the of the former regime have been dragging on and a way that has proved i think beyond a doubt to many people that they are not being taken seriously a lot of the police officers who were implicated in the killing of protesters during the uprising in january have been even released and they're not even held in prison pending investigations or pending court cases and they've been released and they are intimidating the families of the of the marchers so there's a whole combination of issues that culminated. on saturday when it exploded on saturday when the the police used excessive force with a handful i mean maybe not more than one hundred protesters who were families of martyrs who decided to continue
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a sit in to draw attention to the fact that they have not been given any conversation and have been there have not been given any compensation for their you know or did get given any medical treatment by the state since the uprising this is the real problem and the fact that elections seem to be taking place there that this happened right before the elections has just complicated the issue and the fact that it's been mishandled so badly instead that there is that there is a problem going on and what is happening now is a manifestation of all this frustration ok how do you really. i believe the military when they say they want to get out of politics and they really want to promote the democratic process because the military just has such a comfortable position in egyptian society i mean they have for decades that was one of mubarak's ways to divide and rule against the military so many privileges of the military just just can't fathom not ruling egypt. absolutely not i don't buy that for one second and the military class let's remember the rulers of egypt at
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the moment don't just resent the officers that came into power after mubarak left they are the same class the military class that has been ruling the arab recalled blacks for four or five decades and they have been oppressing and stifling the development of arab societies so this is their very last stand and they need to go or they need to go for democracy to prevail and i hope it publics as i say and i fully agree with ronnie and her and i this is but to add them a very important point that many people onto this three it's when they're trying to prevent the possibility of staff as it's called the superior counsel for the armed forces in a kind of establishing its itself as a supro constitutional authority ahead of the oncoming changes in egypt and thereby kind of having an overall control of the political system so regardless of the outcome of the parliamentary and presidential elections it would still with a lot of power but but lastly i just want to go back to what david was saying which
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i think are let me let you be sure we have to go to a short break now for that short break we'll continue our discussion on egypt state party. if you. want the. world with. me or in more mouths to feed but where will the food come from can science provide the answers to the future of food under the microscope. we've got the future covered.
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and you can see. the. welcome back to cross talk i'm here a little to remind you we're discussing egypt's political quagmire. and. ok david i'd like to go to you in haifa i mean we've been talking about the disturbances in the violence of the last few days and going as we look towards the
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elections here but you know ever since mubarak has has left the scene it's really the issue of social injustice that is not being addressed whatsoever as you know we see a lot of state workers getting a nice pay increase the army has everything the military hasn't had anything it controls in society changed whatsoever and you just have the same social issues of the dictatorship of mubarak still exist under this military junta that runs the country and that's what's really angry people well first of all this is not in the . authoritarian regime agencies across three states from july twenty third one thousand nine hundred fifty two. this is a mystery to me is there is a regime will not give up they were not give up and the power perhaps he's weak. no i haven't yet decided what his character or those is but. they will not give out and the masses this is most important two things the first
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the masses marching on the streets and the second is the power of the one in turkey in egyptian politics but mainly if you can say kara quality it's now about semester is marching on is it exists three they really do road toward democracy you are mistaken when they say career they if they don't mean liberalism or freedom and western way what they mean is to less is oppression of the rule to be more completion that not if they don't understand what democracy ease as they don't understand what a girl is an easy western way now if i if i understand what's going on in the streets of cairo param and it's gone are always in the streets or in other arab states the i think don't they don't go marching positively two outs are so who our are. if institutions or a political system which is political goals i'm afraid they would say to would
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really want is the civil society not to need a society the rain already mostly scale you've got out there with your promises wonderful point isn't you brought up a lot an audience the younger generation you've got are you growing educated generation you brought up a lot of right around here if i to go to you so what we just heard and we just heard well we just heard from david is that gyptian saying basically arabs are just not ready for democracy they can't fathom the idea of one person one vote right that's what i got from i can i completely i completely disagree with that point of view i think egyptians understand exactly what they want i think they want democracy they want rule of law they want. quality they want social justice and they want to feel that their human rights are being respected this is why people went out into the streets and january twenty first and i do not believe in all that egyptians want a religious rule or islamic rule this is not what what egyptians of all political
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currents are talking about except for a fringe group of maybe salafist who are giving their discourse without really knowing what it means in general this is absolutely not true i think people in egypt know what they want exactly and had are still continue continuing to fight for it ok to be karl i mean looking at western media mainstream media covering these events here i can't help but feel that they face where they're not ready yet they're not ready for they're just are they going to college to let me go to chrysler going to get a car in london first or i still get this and it's impression that you know that you know look at all these disturbances maybe they should coffee elections because you know they won't have us and election to the news division all the time they have going to morrow says hey karl did you hear my question karl. yes yes i heard your question and i think there's a lot of anxiety in this that's reflected by what david is saying as well and i must congratulate him because he's doing his very best to kind of impersonate that
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character to an article zionist and he's carrying it off very very very successfully i mean why his saying is utterly despicable about his perception of people which he threw it off as a comment like that as muslims they are not muslims there are muslims and christians into it and they're fighting for a better future the fact that he and others in israel and maybe in the west would portray it as some kind of decline and going back to the middle ages only to threats this sense of anxiety about what they're calling the arche but this is a very constructive sense of honor ok if we don't like this indicted form of politics in these were writing off hundreds of years of kind of the history of western democracy look at the french revolution look at the movement look at all this movement that about direct democracy and going through the streets to get it to get your rights we cannot have a situation of parliamentary election and pretending to bring about democracy in this polite way when there's a chorus of controlled by by the military so please spare us the stereotypes and
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let's look at the of the situation on the ground which is the real aspirations for change and i'm not going to accept any sort of dismissive denial of guard all right david you would like to reply and i agree i david replied there is there is a time delay so david would you like to reply to that. like very much to react to this this is not to be a he's rarely look we have. seen us thorwald published in egypt thirty eight percent of the egyptian would vote for a muslim brotherhood freedom and justice party twelve percent for the list for the current a new party and. the pew research poll published in june two thousand and ten indicates that ninety five of the egyptian public would welcome an islamic politics eighty four percent support the death penalty for those who would be slam eighty two percent in favor of stoning people who could meet adultery fifty four percent
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justify so he said all means fifty nine percent say he's the most a fundamentalist and only twenty seven percent with the modernizers these are the the polls investigation done by american bahrain on paper side david thank you thank you for that you being israeli i'm sorry i have to say to my viewers we do have an time delay here but the rain going to regard hire an air of let's see where we can go to cairo now please ok you did look like you agreed with what david had to say go right ahead. yes i don't agree with any of what he's saying and i think you should spare is also the polls there don't clarify the poll results don't clarify what questions were asked when you when you make these strange percentages this is absolutely not true and even if thirty eight percent of the people choose the muslim brotherhood does that does not necessarily mean that the muslim brotherhood represent regression of some sort or represent some kind of iran style
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islam a cruel or a demand for that they are part of the fabric of the society and they will have to be incorporated like everybody else in the society although you know i've been covering the islamic movements over the past five years and my newspaper and everybody is not descend on islam it's all believe that every single step there of the society needs to be involved in the political process so we are not and in any . way going to exclude anyone from this this mosaic the situation now is as follows we are in this and now to have elections and mind you most of the people in here are not against having elections now the fact that there have been angered and have been driven to go back to the here because of the excesses of the ministry of interior and because the people have been killed. a few trilingual for no reason at all does not mean that we are against having elections and going through the process of the democratic process that will rid us of the
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army council ok and this is the situation we're in now carl feingold you again looking at it's taking we could maybe change the angle here is the outside looking in the egyptian situation in the election that the impending election i just can't help but feel that the the west particularly the united states would like to see the military stay in control of egypt in one form or another or over a very slow time period phased out because that's an ally that's a strategic ally it's not the state of egypt it's the gyptian military that's their ally right now and all these fanning about. you know though. the the muslim brotherhood is going to take over and the fanaticism and all that but still you still that still see that in the mainstream here i just can't help that the west would like to see much slower change in egypt and other countries look at bahrain for example. absolutely i mean this is one of the most important a side effect if you like of the arab spring is it explores the decline
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the west and particularly the american power to influence events in the middle east has become and it's allowing all these other agents to kind of push forward and try to dictate their own agenda i mean they've just withdrawn from iraq that that was a big victory and in egypt they kind of unlike other countries where you hear them being more vocal so you hear the american administration calling for change much more aggressively they've had the second chance now they've had a chance to rehearse what they could have said in the case of the. fluff the because they have absolutely no kind of consistency they have nor real policy and they have not in direction what the what they're hoping at the moment is somehow that the military would regain control and ensure a more kind of transition in favor of their own interests and others for that reason but what absolutely a kind of deserve is they like actually the power to influence events and they not any coherent and consistent idea about how to either change or or even kind of
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maintain a consistent position about the democracy movement which in my opinion in a lot of credibility and also is weakening their position a lot the upside of as i say is for anyone who's interested in democracy and secular forms of practice in politics is that kind of weakening of external influence opens up great opportunities in our country is and i think it's an opportunity that progressive politics and parties have have to kind of rise up to ok i did finish up in cairo because that's where the election is going to be and egypt is going to hold a few days it will the election be deemed after the fact is illegitimate in fear do you think. i hope that they are managed that i hope if staff does one thing right is that they managed to secure these elections my biggest fear is that people will be too afraid to go out in the streets and vote and the next couple of days. if
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that is the staff does this right and manages to secure the polling stations and manages to just see this happen you know and is transparent way as possible then i think they should be deemed fair and and then they should be i'm hoping that they will be fair and transparent and then just people are very vigilant they're all watching. and examining out the rest of the election many thanks my guest today in london haifa and in cairo our thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. the next time remember.
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